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> mandibular periostitis
seshana
сообщение 18.4.2009, 6:05
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I found an article about mandibular periostitis after bit damage.
The crazy thing is that they do surgery on these horses, just so they can go back to working with a bit angry.gif
Not one word mentioned about throwing the bit away huh.gif
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=4077

edit: you have to register to thehorse.com to read the entire article.
the link to the original article is: http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2002/910102000458.pdf

Сообщение отредактировал seshana - 18.4.2009, 16:03


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natascha
сообщение 18.4.2009, 11:11
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Thanks a lot for sharing.

It would be great to see if we can get the entire article and see to put it in a file together with other themes that we can go deeper in the knowledge, discussion and then argumentation.
I f you wish to gather these infos, it will be very great and very usefull for all of us, because many of us have the wish to find out scientific articles and gather a knowledge to be able to built up a proper contra-argumentation against the bit whenever we go on such subjects with peple.
It is always good to be well prepared before openng the mouth and come with argumentation on topics that are not easy like the one of the bit, more infos, articles, studies... we have and we can present, better we will be in our agumentation.
So if you wish to contribute to it, welcome.


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Janene
сообщение 18.4.2009, 11:20
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QUOTE(natascha @ 18.4.2009, 11:11) *
Thanks a lot for sharing.

It would be great to see if we can get the entire article and see to put it in a file together with other themes that we can go deeper in the knowledge, discussion and then argumentation.
I f you wish to gather these infos, it will be very great and very usefull for all of us, because many of us have the wish to find out scientific articles and gather a knowledge to be able to built up a proper contra-argumentation against the bit whenever we go on such subjects with peple.
It is always good to be well prepared before openng the mouth and come with argumentation on topics that are not easy like the one of the bit, more infos, articles, studies... we have and we can present, better we will be in our agumentation.
So if you wish to contribute to it, welcome.

Hi guys! I have a number of articles with pics and so forth (all scientific ones) from the bit submission, on this subject and other injuries too...I promise it is coming!! It puts it all together. I too was amazed in all the articles there was not one thought that REMOVING the bit would solve all of the issues...quite insane really!
I will be getting to it again, a number of things in life have popped up to slow down the last work on it, I wanted it done 2 weeks ago now!
I will get cracking!
Cheers Nene


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seshana
сообщение 18.4.2009, 12:36
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natascha: what did you mean by the entire article?
Did you mean the article in the link? Because it was the entire article there when I read it yeasterday!.
http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2002/910102000458.pdf I don\t know if this link will work, but this is the background for the article written in "the Horse"original (article written by thomas j johnson)
Mostly it describes the surgery and what they can do to get the horse working with abit again.
I will try to see if I can find some articles that describes more about how bits causes mandible periostitis!

Janene: it's so great that you have gathered so many articles smile.gif will it be posted here on the newcomers forum when you're done?

btw: can anyone tell me if the last link doesn't work?



Сообщение отредактировал seshana - 18.4.2009, 12:48


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natascha
сообщение 18.4.2009, 14:32
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QUOTE(seshana @ 18.4.2009, 5:05) *



This link quoted so:



Surgical Removal of Bone Spurs Caused by Bit Damage
by: Sarah L. Evers
January 21 2003, Article # 4077 If your horse is tossing his head or hanging his tongue out while being ridden, going “behind the vertical,” or bearing into the bit, then bone spurs might be the reason. Bone spurs are inflammations of the membrane of fibrous connective tissue that covers the mandible. They usually occur between the corner incisor and second premolar (interdental space) of the lower jaw. The majority of these are caused by bit damage. However, with a simple surgery ...

Thanks for giving now the other link, I have the article on pdf. GREAT JOB!


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natascha
сообщение 18.4.2009, 14:38
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Dear Janene

I am very excited about the result of the research.

I really would like to create a working group on that.

You see, my profession is physician councelling for a pharma Industry. My main fields are endocrinological metabolism and Assisted Reproduction (FIV).
Inside our Company, we HAVE to receive 6 weeks a year deep courses on the different aspect of the pathologies, we have to know all sides of the pathology and we have to know very well our products and the products of theconcurence. No argument can be given without it is founded with clinical studies outcomes.

Then with all this material we can go to the specialists and have tals because we are very well prepared.

In the same way, my dream is to have a data base where we can find pro argument the best scientific articles and clinical studies. This should be a service to all member of te HR or school who would like to promote our philosophy in these main fields:

So here are the argumets:

- why not to ride a horse before he is naturally collected
- what is natural collection (all anatomy and biomechanical sides)
- the use of thermographic images by well known pathologist, surgeon, vets...

- the harm of bit
- I would love the russian studies promoted by A.N., but also other souces maybe
- Alternative to bit develop a better (relationship, why one use the bit (control, fear, habit..)
- studies and research of biteless

- shoes
- collect all best studies about harm of shoes
- concretize a collaboration with the different schools for the use of their articles, studies... (Ramey, Jackson, Strasser)
- try to get specificities (i.e. on flat ground - on rock ground, , climate changes dry and humid...)

- punishment, negative reinforcement versus positive reinforcement
- these are more studies of equine ethologist (better to emphasize on the stidies atht proves the intelligence and emotional sensibility of horses, the faculty of empathy that is natural to horses

So with that we have a lot to do yet!


The final aim ids to create a data bank that belongs to NHE, so each document has to be submitted to some inner comitee who can valuate its seriousness, foundation...)


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Natascha Smargiassi
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seshana
сообщение 18.4.2009, 15:58
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Natascha: that sounds like such a good idea smile.gif smile.gif

If Ifind good scientific articles on these subjects, shall I just post them here?

I also have some downloaded articles that I no longer know the internet adress to. Is it possible to send them to you by e- mail?

I guess the reason that you could only read part of the first article,is that you have to be logged in at thehorse.com. I didn't think about it when I posted it, because my computer keeps me logged in automatically, so I could read the whole article without problems.

They have some interresting newsletters now and then smile.gif

I too dowloaded the article from ivis.org. you never know when they don't excist on the internett anymore smile.gif
I experienced this when I downloaded the laminitis research by pollit. a couple of weeks after I downloaded, it was gone from the place on the internet that I found it. I was very happy to have safe on my computer smile.gif


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Spirithorse
сообщение 18.4.2009, 17:16
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Hi Christine, I read the whole article and copied it. thank you for posting link.
Natascha I like your idea too.


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natascha
сообщение 18.4.2009, 18:12
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So let us start if the idea pleases.

I suggest that the source of articles should be verified:

How to verify?
Simple take the name of the author and research where he published, in which vet publication and see a bit the curriculum of the person. If there are articles in other languages, it does not matter, main thing is to verify the source.
Once it is done, we should present it over here with the entire and exact title, the author, the publication in which it appeared and the date of publication.





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natascha
сообщение 18.4.2009, 18:58
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Let us take the exemple with your article:


Gloabal theme: BIT
sub-theme: dentistry
Title:SURGICAL REMOVAL OF MANDIBULAR PERIOSTITIS (BONE SPURS) CAUSED BY BIT DAMAGE
Author: Thomas J. Johnson
web link: http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2002/910102000458.pdf
Publication:IVIS - International veterinary Information Services (www.ivis.org)
Year: 2002
Accreditation:AAEP - American Association for Equine Practitionar (www.aaep.org)
Summerize: interesting article that promote the surgical invasion for the pariostitis problem in order to bring a solution for the horse to be ridden again and the confort of the rider because the horse is not going to shake his head because of pain anymore.


MY COMMENTARIES:

Suggestion:
with reference to that specific article, we could just write to the author and ask him if the non utilisation of the bit would cause such damages. He is a dentist, so we cannot ask him directly why he does not suggest to remove bit, because it is obvous: how could he get his monthly allowance if he does not work because all are renouncing of bit. But with his simple statement "without bit, this damage cannot occusr". We already got our aim!

Sources:
Please note that IVIS.com is an on line website sponsored by big pjharmaceutical Industries that sells veterinarian products. So it is also spoiled with marketing from these pharmaceutical Industries.
IVIS has no official reference with a University or a veterianrian faculty, so their publication is OK, but not 100% scientific.
By the way, the same is there with www.thehorse.com

Now it is very important to have article that are really scientific other wise the first vet will demolish the argument saying that the source is not serious.

So I have to look if the author has published somewhere else.
By typing his name, some good surprise came: he published a publication: Current therapy in Equine Medicine, published by Elsevier.
www.elsevier.com
If you go on: http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/intro.cws_home/ataglance you see immediately that Elsevier is a very serious publication and includes the most serious scientific publications in the world.
That means that our dentist Johnson is a valuable dentist and also recognized from the scientific academicains and that his statements can be taken for argumentation.

SO NEXT STEP: WRITE HIM AND ASK HIM: It would be better that one vet or vet student does it, not I because otherwise he will ask the reason why a non vet is asking this question. So if you have a friend that is Vet, you can ask her/ him to write.

Back to publication:
How to recognize the scientific ones:
For instance, whenever you surf in Elsevier, you can continue to research, connecton The Lancet nad go further with key words.

I made it and in 10 minutes I found this page: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/07490739 it has nothing to do with our dentistry topic, but these are typical exemple of scientific publications in scientific sources.

So, courage and thaks for collaboration


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Natascha Smargiassi
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Janene
сообщение 19.4.2009, 2:50
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Hi Christine...it will go up on its own website after being submitted to the welfare councils around Australia. I dont' think I can probably just post it here as it is well over 10mb now and that doesn't include the reference articles! So I thought putting it on its own website and posting a link was the best way to go. Also, I have quite a bit of info that isn't in the sub because it isn't neccessarily scientifically valid. As Natascha so rightly mentions, the scientific works need to be serious works...meaning it is peer reviewed science. However the other material is still of useful benefit for us all and for arguments for lay people. So I thought to make the website an ongoing work in itself...somewhere that anyone can email me info, and if it is appropriate I can add it. Kind of the same idea as Natascha is having, creating a sort of database.

Natascha, Elsvier and the other main scientific data bases are where I am gathering my works! I guess we will actually find a great deal of replication between us all as the work out there is not all that prolific. Not to worry, between so many heads I am sure we will find the best! The main article I have re the bit spurs is the same one I think, from Elsvier. I have contacted some of the authors, we may need to address copywright concerns as not all of these articles are allowed to be posted neccessarily...I am still looking into commons laws too. Need to educate myself there more!
Anyway, great idea to gather all this Natashca...after the bitting, feet (shoes) are next!

I am getting back to work now!
Cheers Nene


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seshana
сообщение 19.4.2009, 2:50
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Hi Natascha! and thank you for your last post smile.gif
it made me sit a whole evening, searching the internet,and learning alot:)
It's not easy to find what I'm looking for though.

I tried to find something about back problems from beeing ridden, and there is no problem finding scientific artcles about back problems, but they all claim that he problem only comes from a bad fitted saddle or an unbalanced rider. It looks like they don't dare to say anything else than that sad.gif

I don't have any veterinary friends, but surely there must be someone on the forum that has?

Great way of organizing the articles smile.gif but I still didn't find out where to post it? maybe we need a topic only for the articles, so they don't "drown" in all the chat?


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seshana
сообщение 19.4.2009, 3:00
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QUOTE(Janene @ 19.4.2009, 1:50) *
Hi Christine...it will go up on its own website after being submitted to the welfare councils around Australia. I dont' think I can probably just post it here as it is well over 10mb now and that doesn't include the reference articles! So I thought putting it on its own website and posting a link was the best way to go. Also, I have quite a bit of info that isn't in the sub because it isn't neccessarily scientifically valid. As Natascha so rightly mentions, the scientific works need to be serious works...meaning it is peer reviewed science. However the other material is still of useful benefit for us all and for arguments for lay people. So I thought to make the website an ongoing work in itself...somewhere that anyone can email me info, and if it is appropriate I can add it. Kind of the same idea as Natascha is having, creating a sort of database.

Natascha, Elsvier and the other main scientific data bases are where I am gathering my works! I guess we will actually find a great deal of replication between us all as the work out there is not all that prolific. Not to worry, between so many heads I am sure we will find the best! The main article I have re the bit spurs is the same one I think, from Elsvier. I have contacted some of the authors, we may need to address copywright concerns as not all of these articles are allowed to be posted neccessarily...I am still looking into commons laws too. Need to educate myself there more!
Anyway, great idea to gather all this Natashca...after the bitting, feet (shoes) are next!

I am getting back to work now!
Cheers Nene



Hi janane! "


what a great way to go! just make sure you post the link to you website, somwhere wherre it doesn't get "lost" in here biggrin.gif
we don't want to miss it you know smile.gif

I'm looking forward to when you start on those feet smile.gif
If it is possible, I would love to be a part of that, and help out with somme of the work:)




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Janene
сообщение 19.4.2009, 3:38
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QUOTE(seshana @ 19.4.2009, 3:00) *
Hi janane! "


what a great way to go! just make sure you post the link to you website, somwhere wherre it doesn't get "lost" in here biggrin.gif
we don't want to miss it you know smile.gif

I'm looking forward to when you start on those feet smile.gif
If it is possible, I would love to be a part of that, and help out with somme of the work:)

Thanks! any help is great! I already feel I need to be 5 people! LOL!
Catch you soon!
Cheers Nene


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seshana
сообщение 19.4.2009, 13:09
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QUOTE(Janene @ 19.4.2009, 2:38) *
Thanks! any help is great! I already feel I need to be 5 people! LOL!
Catch you soon!
Cheers Nene


great smile.gif

Just let me know when you start working on it smile.gif


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natascha
сообщение 19.4.2009, 13:31
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QUOTE(seshana @ 19.4.2009, 1:50) *
I tried to find something about back problems from beeing ridden, and there is no problem finding scientific artcles about back problems, but they all claim that he problem only comes from a bad fitted saddle or an unbalanced rider. It looks like they don't dare to say anything else than that sad.gif



If saddles and unbalanced rider has nothing to do with riding?

Did you watch the last DVD from Alexander Nevzorov? In his dvd he speaks about pression, lack of blood circulation in the muscle and he went deep into the physiological side especially about the muscle and circulatory system. In most of the studies of actual vets they look maintly the skeletal system. But when the damage caused to the back has already reached the skeletal system, it means that the damage on the muscular and circulatory system of the back is really very afflicted.


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seshana
сообщение 19.4.2009, 14:29
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I completely agree with you.

the problem with these articles is that so many people blame the back problem on the saddle, change the saddle, and keep on riding the horse for hours in an uncollected state sad.gif

do you know where to find the studies about pressure and blood circulation?


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natascha
сообщение 19.4.2009, 14:36
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Did you watch the DVD "Horse crucified and risen"? from A.N.?
In Horse Anthology there is some article but we need to have the references.


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Natascha Smargiassi
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seshana
сообщение 19.4.2009, 16:17
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QUOTE(natascha @ 19.4.2009, 13:36) *
Did you watch the DVD "Horse crucified and risen"? from A.N.?
In Horse Anthology there is some article but we need to have the references.


I have two of alexanders dvd's but a friend of mine has borrowed them, so I haven't seen them for a year sad.gif
Is there anymore videos that has been published recently?
About the anthology: I haven't been able to download it (I've written about it in the anthology discount group topic) Do you have any idea where to turn to get some help with it? I'ts almost three weeks since I first tried downloading it!


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